Tuesday, March 13, 2007

i had an argument with the kids in bat ayin
they had been in gush katif (twas relatively 'right after' the hitnatkut)
we were talking about the validity vs necessity vs permissibility vs appropriatibility of the phrase 'lo nishkach v'lo nislach' [we will not forget and we will not forgive']
(ach i had a post or two on this..till i drafted all my early posts nu nu)

anyhow we were arguing about it

they agreed with it-
they said that we cannot forget nor forgive the soldiers for what they had done
i disagreed with it-
i said we cannot forget but we must forgive the soldiers for what they have done
i asked them how they can stand in front of hashem and beg for forgiveness for their own misdeeds while at the same time they are sealing their hearts to their own brothers-adamantly refusing to budge in their decision of nonforgiveness.
they said that it's different-
the soldiers aren't even ASKING to be forgiven!
once they ask, once they repent, once they regret-then we can talk about forgiving.
i said that we have to be dan lechaf zechus, who knows if we woulda been able to withstand the pressure/brainwashing etc?
they said it is so grand, so despicable, that we would have been strong
i said its impossible to know and we have to be judge favorably, have pity on them, open our hearts
they said that it was a sin of such magnitude, that we MUST condemn them
i said that its impossible to know what sins are magnificent in hashems eyes and which are 'minor'
they said that it was a chillul hashem on such a huge level, that its impossible to think otherwise...

and on and on we went. we all started to look at things a teeny bit differently, became less stubborn in some areas, more in others and even changed our minds a bit...especially once we started quoting different halachic sources and torah giants.

then i said 'but i dont forgive hashem'

and woah, bedlam erupted.

how can u say that?!?!
who are u not to forgive hashem?!?
what do you mean that YOU don't forgive hashem? hashem doesn't need YOUR forgiveness!!
where do you get such chutzpah-to say that you don't forgive hashem!?!
why are you blaming hashem? its the soldiers who did it!!

and i was a bit taken aback. i honestly had not expected that reaction.
so i tried explaining, but man were they indignant.
i wanted to tell them about free choice-how yes, every jew has got it, but everything is really from hashem. in a way, we are puppets. we are forced to play around in certain parts-but we get to choose which parts we want. so though we get rewarded n punished for our actions and interactions with mankind, its hashem that decides who will get what.
i wanted them to understand that we are allowed to beg from hashem and demand from Him to rip up harsh decrees, that hashem waits for our cries and for our tears, that we are REQUIRED to 'bother' hashem
i wanted them to shout ad mosai with me
i wanted them to see that hashem is waitin for our teshuva and that the reason why we are in golus has as much to do with destroyed shuls as it has to do with lashon hora.

and i don't remember if anyone got convinced. maybe a bit, maybe some, but on the whole they disagreed with me.

they thought i was mishug

i became a bit less sure of myself. maybe i was wrong. maybe we are not allowed to be angry with hashem and say ' i dont forgive you, hashem'.
what do i know? im just a kid.

but i thought of the rebbe screaming 'ad mosai', of the rebbe telling hashem He has no reason not to bring us geulah.
so i dunno if we are allowed to say 'we don't forgive You' but i knew we could be angry and demand a change in fate-cuz this is one fate that we don't deserve.

and then just now, just before, someone says to me it's 5am, just woke up, can't sleep
so i say hope u can sleep and i hope ur sleep has not been disturbed due to s/t negative
she says of course it has
of course? i ask.
ye, she says, thats the only time my sleep is disturbed. upset at hashem, that's all.

those words 'upset at hashem' jumped out at me
flashed me back to the roadside of bat ayin
where we had sat-a group of girls flung into darkness, cautiously and earnestly and courageously workin our way out with light...

and i shivered
times never change, do they?

so we exchange a few more words
terse ones

and then i bid her good night
i hope you sleep well, i tell her
but not before you scream at hashem

ugh thank you she says
yea, He can take it


Esther said...

Funny, I was just talking about this with Molly.
I felt so betrayed after Gush Katif, not so much by the State of Israel or the army, but by Gd. Watching it actually happen really destroyed my faith in the power of prayer and justice. We begged and cried by Gush Katif and the prayers turned to smoke, just like the prayers of the Jews in Aushowitz, the Jews in the inquisition, the Jews during the destruction of the Bais Hamikdash and the Jews during every time of suffering. Makes you wonder if Hashem ever stops to listen. Don't forget, and definitely do not forgive.

Chaya said...

WOW!! Spoken like a true Chasid who yearns for moshiach!
Mind if i post a link?

Mimi said...

yes yes yes yes, thank you.

i went back to bed, stared at the ceiling for a bit longer, then fell asleep. but it was a fitful rest...

...the type of rest we should all be having...until the true dawn breaks.

right on, girl, right on...

it feels good to have such strong team members. really.

the sabra said...

i didn't lose my faith in the power of prayer. it could have been way worse, esty.
and no, hashem does not stop to listen. He doesn't STOP listening! But something tells me He wishes He heard more-and differently..that He would hear more 'baruch hashem's, and more 'thank You's etc..
Regardless, Hashem hears and accepts and acts according to our tefillos.
And ur last sentence? whom did u intend should not be forgiven?

true chossid? i dunno, halevai.
course u can link here..just make sure u um know that these are my own thoughts, im not representing chabad or whatever, i don't even know if what i said/feel makes sense but ya..

(im not saying anything cuz i just agree and don't wanna spoil it w/ words)

Anonymous said...

I disagree,
You can argue "that being mad at the soldiers is being mad at hashem because its what hashem wanted"

But the gemara asks the same thing about titus harasha, and the midrash about pharoh.. why were they punished ? they only followed what hashem had planed..

True, but we all have bechira chofshit..

So I saw on the wall of this house in gush katif, right under the zecher l'churban part..

"Hashem nasan, hashem lakach.. yehi shem hashem movrach"

Just as we bless hashem c'v lo aleinu by a tragedy, we must bless hashem for anything else he does..

But man can be blamed, for man unlike a beheima can choose... Adam learnt the hard way and took us all with!

Its easy for you to talk about forgivness, as much you feel for them, it wasent your home that was destroyed, your family torn apart, your job lost...

I try to look at them as just kids, neshamot that made a mistake..

But what about the officers ? the magav guys that beat...

When you forgive too fast, it happens again..

As we sit back and look at what happend, how a nation fell for the plot of one man.. utza eitz v'sufar.. dabru davar v'lo yakum..

Alas this man had the support of most of the jewish nation so what was hashem to do?

8,000 jews paid the price of this stupidity, we lost a war in lebanon and national security..

Anonymous said...

I clearly saw the sabra wearing a lo nishkach shirt! SHTECH!!

(I havent used that word since 8th grade lol)

Esther said...

Well if Hashem is listening, he has got to have the hardest heart ever. Its not just about Gush Katif, it is all the pain and suffering that happens all around us and to the Jewish people in particular. Devoutly religous Jews pray and don't get answered and complete athiests don't pray and get saved. Go figure. I would rather give Him the benefit of the doubt and say that He comes up with his own plan of action and executes it despite our own limited perception.

The last line was refering to Gd.

And is there a reason why you refer to me as Esty? Was that a rebellion or just a slip of the tongue? ;)

Anonymous said...


Its because we are here for our reward in the next world and to bring moshiach, tanya chapter 12 igeret hateshuva talks about how suffering in this world saves us from suffering in the next world.

Life may not seem fair or even cruel.. but we have to look at the positive!

Anonymous said...

Besides, g-d is a kind a mercifull g-d! we deserve alot of punishing y'know..

Nemo said...

Didn't your mother ever teach you not to argue with Israelis?

Avi said...

Funny thought: Have you ever brought a friend along to a high-profile gala/party/home...? You know the host, you walk up and say "Mr. Hostifier this is one hell of a party! I was a bit offended that you didn't answer my phone call the other day. Good to see you now. Nice party. It would've been nice, ya know, to answer my call. Or just ya know... but really cool place, I'm gonna grab a drink."
Your friend is horrified. "That's Mr. HOSTIFIER!!! Are you out of your mind???? You don't just complain to Hostifier, like, when you feel like it!!!"

To an observer, the friend is so incredibly tactful; you're a total boor. Ahhhh, but you KNOW Mr. Hostifier. You're his neighbor shoin tzvantzig yohr. He's told you how much it means to him when you are honest. Don't be a stranger. "Mi casa es su casa" he said.

It's like learning chassidus and gaining a real perspective on the workings of Mr. Hostifier. A personal perspective. He said "call anytime." You only LOOK like you don't get it. You get it so well that you can afford to look that way.

Should I gove another dumb example cuz I can? No? Oh...

Those mom's who look so dumb saying to their kids - just loud enough for you to hear but oh-so-insincerely - "Tommy, don't pull that man's ear." As opposed to my niece who feels slighted by my failure to pick her up and pulls the appendage clean-off my head.

Should I give another example?

Probably, I'm not sure you get it.

E said...

Avi- Whatever your trying to say, can you just say it? Without the complex mashalim? I am quite dense and need things to be spelled out.

Scraps said...

You would get along well with my sister; she also doesn't like "lo nishkach, lo nislach".

Avi said...

E: Let me give you an example...

Anonymous said...

there is no ma'aleh in giving deep complex meshalim that we cant figure out, let alone the nimshal!

The rebbe could give deep ma'am,erim that not even Rav yoel would understand but whats the point ?

Come down from your high chair and talk normally.

the sabra said...

i thought it was pretty clear

what's your relationship with the hostifier er host of this world like?

Anonymous said...

Yes Avi was stating that to the casual observer, the guests were out of hand and even downright rude, when in fact the host encourages such honesty and truthfull remarks.. and may even be upset when you dont.

Thats nice and fine but esther didnt understand..

Avi said...

Sabra, Anon: Izzackly!

Anonymous said...

Regarding your first post, what about the prayers that came true ? all the miracles... y'know the 6,000 rockets that by miracle 99% fell harmlessly..

Y'know all those hundreds of terrorists that were caught, look at Yigal kirshenzaft, I mean the sharpenal disappeared from his spine!

I have a whole book called "al hanisim"

Look at the miracles of '48 '56 '67 '73 '91 etc.. etc...

The jews were to blame in most disasters, they were warned for 40 years to repent or the beit hamikdash was destroyed, did they listen ? Yirmiyahu screamed and begged! he warned of what would happen and the king tried to have him killed (sound familiar?)

The jews in Spain had plenty of time to leave, but they couldn't part with their wealth.

I know that on the 12th of av hashem and the malachim cried and cried.. but it was hashem saying to us "what do you want from me ?!?!? its being done by jews"

And that is why I blame the soldiers, the ones with bechira chofshit, the sabra professes to be a chasid and learns tanya and tanya teaches every jew has full control over themselves...

Even the famous robber and sinner Ben durdaya figured this out when he tried to repent and tried laying his blame on his parents, childhood, friends, financial situation etc... and in the end he realized that its him.. he put his head between his knees and cried till his soul expired, upon hearing this rabbi yehuda hanasi said "kaneh olamo b'shaa achas" he acquired his share in the world to come in 1 hour.

Freeing the soldiers from blame because "they were brainwashed, under pressure, young etc.." only makes this worse and worse...

They can justify it to themselves and never repent, they can do it again and again and again..

Tanya teaches that the first step towards teshuva is knowing you did something wrong, acknowledging it and having remorse..

the sabra said...

right, knowing YOU did something wrong. not goin around and blaming and judging others.

how do u not see the difference?

the sabra said...

anonymous 3:46am-
my rebbe said that hashem has no reason not to bring moshiach.
we deserve moshiach.
don't talk to me bout punishments.

the sabra said...

anonymous 3:12am-
yes i've worn it
never denied
and if you read the post carefully, ull see that i still think 'lo nishkach v'lo nislach'
just talkin bout different targets, zehu.

the sabra said...

esther 3:22-
hashem gave us the concept of davenin IN ORDER that we convince Him to change His mind.

and esty was notta slip of the tongue (nor finger)....tis just that i was talkin to u for real...ach can't explain it..

Avi said...

Anon 3:02: Along the lines of the Sabra directly below your comment: All of the examples you gave may be historically accurate but they are IMPOSSIBILITIES as far as we are concerned. WE have no right to judge those Jews, nor answer for the murderous mobs who spent every bit of their wretched lives trying to "Throw the Jew Down the Well."

(This is with regard to Jewish reaction to being hounded by goyim.
The discussion at hand regards a Jewish initiative. I'm not commenting on that.)

Anonymous said...

In following along the terms of a civil discussion and chasid to chasid.. I honestly tell you, you havent got a clue what the heck your talking about.

Am I to judge on everyones personal situation ? no.. I am looking at the situation as a whole and the implications it has on all of am yisrael residing here in eretz yisrael which shall we put it nicely does not include you!

The sin of the girush was not so much throwing 8,000 jews from their home, I can live with that, i'll build em a new home...

Its the fact that we in a few days put the entire nation of israel in eretz yisrael over 6 million jews... in dire serious sakanas nefashos..

Do you follow politix ? you watch sharon's house of cards crumble... I see em go on TV one after the other after another and what do they say ?!?!?

Gen gershon hakohen commander of all troops of the expulsion: the expulsion was a great sin and act of mortal danger to the entire state of israel.

Gen yiftach ron tal past commansder of ground forces who was dismissed for hgis comments stating that the expulsion caused us to lose the lebanon war.

Tzachi hanegbi, Limor livnat, Gen elazar stern, Shaul mofaz and on and on and on...

Well my dear friend as we tend to say "we are in deep shi*" now tune in to MEMRI broadcasting transelated footage from hizballah run Al manar and Al jazzera and all the other Al's...

And they all say that the expulsion was a surender point for israel yada yada yada...

How many lifes will it cost to recapture gaza ? and all the tunnels, weapons, money they smuggled... and the long range rockets they have / will smuggle to yehuda shomron..


Your welcome to bame politicians... in my line of work I have found that to be stupid and worthless...

Its because the soldiers did as commanded.. because they could not stand up and say "no! this will cause a huge sakanas nefashot!"

And we gave them the evidence, and there are rockets raining down on sedorot and who cares ?

I cant forgive the soldiers.. I havent the koach to enable me to do such.. ask erez levanon, shmuel matt, the sedorot victims, lebanon war victims to forgive the soldiers..

Your right I cannot judge their situation.. I cant afford to.. I am judging the drek hole we are in now.

Your welcome to sing and skip along in your dance of carelessness and ignorance...

But my rebbe felt otherwise, my rebbe saw it fit to scream about shlaimus haaretz and pikuach nefesh.. hama'aseh hu ha'ikar!

And everytime I look at my 2 volumes of karasi v'en oneh.. and I say to myself "why did the rebbe devout so many sichos to this?!?"

My rebbe screamd about yamit till he turned purple, and my rebbe was screaming silently about gush katif.. my rebbe is screaming now...

Go and nislach, nishkach hakol.. or perhaps write me another mashal.. see if I care...

Hashem listens to us, he is begging us to hold onto our land, to fight for our nachala and yerusha..

Avi said...

The discussion at hand regards a Jewish initiative. I'm not commenting on that... Those were the final words of my previous comment. Sorry you had to type alllll that.

I took issue with Anon who Maintained that "The Jews in Spain were Mainly in the Blame. ...And that is why I blame the soldiers..." Paraphrased.

"No, no!" say I. THAT can't be a reason. Perhaps the soldiers were wrong but you can't draw a parallel from history.

the sabra said...

I used the Hostifier moshol a few weeks back.

C said...

Just reread this post.

Still love it.